In this episode of Drunk Ex-Pastors, Jason and Christian revisit WWII and debate whether saving one Jew was worth killing 250,000 Japs (Christian seems to think so), leading us into a discussion about whether someone can be a noble soldier serving an ignoble national agenda (during which Jason accidentally compares the U.S. to Nazi Germany). The subject of racism emerges again, forcing us to rate just how racist Southerners are on a scale of 4 – 10 (there simply aren’t any numbers lower than 4 on this scale), after which we tackle the topic of parents virally video-shaming their kids. Jason’s bieber involves prohibiting white people from naming streets, while Christian is biebered by radio stations in the summer.
Also, get in line, starving Africans, because our church’s prayer chain is clogging up the pipeline with requests for God to heal little Timmy’s sniffles.
Links from this Episode:
- Garden State
- Transgender bathroom sign
- “Fifty men. Fifty.”
- The Pelican Brief
- Bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki
- Bombing of Tokyo
- Howard Zinn bio
- “It’s on and poppin’ up in here, you feel?”
- Bill O’Reilly and the End of Racism
- Mississippi abolishes slavery
- Louis CK’s SNL monologue
- Gran Torino
- The shaming video that started it all
- “That’s why you always leave a note.”
- Woodinville Wine Country
- D’Jasper Probincrux III
- “Where B’lockay at?”
- “What do you love about Eddie and His Manpurse?”
- “I see a little silhouetto of a man….”
ComradeDread
To put the atomic bomb into context, you have to realize that we had, as a world, moved into a time where the normal moral calculus was extremely messed up.
This was a war where Hitler and the Soviet Union killed 5 million Poles. Hitler would kill 6 million Jews, as well as millions of other ‘undesirables’. It was a war in which the French fell to the Nazis in 7 weeks, and they were one of the ones that lasted the longest.
German planes opened up on London, bombing civilians for the purpose of general terror. The British retaliated, and the longer the war went on, the more cities and infrastructure was bombed beyond the capacity for repair.
The Soviets would lose in total 23 million men and women.
Japan would kill up to 14 million in China.
It was a bloodbath. It was a horror. It was a time where nothing really mattered but victory.
We had already been bombing cities into non-existence for some time killing a horrific number of civilians, to the point where the general in charge of American bomber groups said, “If we had lost the war, I would have been put on trial for war crimes.”
And so, in the context of “Do we continue carpet bombing Japanese cities in general in preparation for a land invasion? Or would it be more merciful to use our atomic bomb to convince them of the futility of their cause?” the moral question becomes somewhat more muddled.
RE: Keys vs. Atrocities
I think in Evangelical Christianity, there is such an emphasis on the personal or individual that it skews our perspective. God is very personal to the point where we have ‘a relationship’ with Him and that relationship is viewed like Jesus is my Buddy. “Hey, Lord, can you help me look for my keys?” or “Can you kick in an extra $50 for my rent this month so I can buy a new iPhone?”
And we lose sight of the greater community of people. It’s just Me and Jesus heading off into my day and everything outside of Me and Jesus is secondary or tertiary in my concerns.
So those 30,000 people who will die today from lack of food or potable water aren’t even on the radar because it doesn’t affect ME.
JasonStellman
Very true. And conservative, libertarian-style politics is just secular evangelical individualism, usually applied to economics.
Lane
Jason,
I agree with Comrade, WW2 by all accounts was horrific in every sense of the word. If there could ever be mitigating circumstances for dropping nuclear weapons, they existed during WW2. The bombs did end the war, and probably reduced the overall number of casualty that would have otherwise be seen on both sides if the war would have continued.
You mentioned that the Japan attack on pearl harbor as a legitimate military target, yes I agree. Although we hadn’t enter the war yet so it was unprovoked. Further, lets not over look that Japan committed incredible war crimes that are only rivaled by Germany, so they can hardly be seen as fighting a just war, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes
This isn’t to say that we didn’t do things that were also terrible, but this war was insane on all sides.
This video has been making the rounds on the internet, and if you haven’t seen it yet, it is a must watch. It attempts to put the outrageous dizzying numbers associated with the WW2 into perspective.
https://vimeo.com/128373915?fb_action_ids=10152934601367849&fb_action_types=og.shares&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%5B906930279348691%5D&action_type_map=%5B%22og.shares%22%5D&action_ref_map=%5B%5D
Lane
I can’t tell if the video posted, here it is again:
https://vimeo.com/128373915?fb_action_ids=10152934601367849&fb_action_types=og.shares&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%5B906930279348691%5D&action_type_map=%5B%22og.shares%22%5D&action_ref_map=%5B%5D
[https://vimeo.com/128373915?fb_action_ids=10152934601367849&fb_action_types=og.shares&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%5B906930279348691%5D&action_type_map=%5B%22og.shares%22%5D&action_ref_map=%5B%5D]
Greg Hao
Very interesting point about the myopia of evangelical christians. For me, it simply mirrors the larger societal move towards more selfishness. Just ironic that christians are supposed to be about communities yet they fail along with the rest of us.
Lane
Christian,
So I saw this article, and I wanted to see how crazy environmental you are. A 9 month pregnant woman got stranded following bad directions in a national forest. See ends up giving birth following running out of gas. She has little to no food. So in a desperate attempt to get help, she starts a fire that quickly becomes a “small” forest fire. Which works and gets her and her new born rescued.
Do you think her action’s were justified? Would it had been better for her and her new born to starve to death rather than set the fire?
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2015/06/29/woman-starts-forest-fire-in-desperate-attempt-to-get-help-after-giving-birth-in-plumas-national-forest/
Christian Kingery
Well her action was to try to start a “signal fire.” I have zero problems with that. She doesn’t sound like the sharpest tool in the shed all around though.
Christian Kingery
I don’t think we were “defending” racism of regions outside of the south. I think we were just saying it’s often less overt. That’s not saying it’s better. The more subtle racism is probably harder to get rid of.
I don’t think everyone who flies the confederate flag is racist by any means, whether they are from the south or not. However, I think if they think the confederate flag is not a symbol of racism, then they’re a bit ignorant of history and exactly what the south was fighting for.
Christian Kingery
Really interesting video.
Because of our conversation, the articles you guys have linked to, some stuff we linked to in our links from this episode, etc., I’m much more supportive of the U.S. having dropped the two atomic bombs on Japan in 1945 than I was when we spoke about it on the podcast.
Lane
When I re-watched the video earlier, I noticed that the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, while in and of themselves cause significant causalities rapidly, they barely made a dent in the overall numbers of people killed during WW2.
I do hope they are never used again by anyone.
JasonStellman
I don’t doubt that it’s possible that our dropping bombs indiscriminately on major Japanese cities filled with civilians may have ended up lessening the amount of eventual deaths (much like destroying all major Islamic cities might end up reducing deaths by terrorism).
I just think it’s not the place of the bomb-dropper to proclaim how good an idea it ended up being. Especially when we’re calling Pearl Harbor a “day of infamy.”
Christian Kingery
The bombs weren’t dropped indiscriminately. You can read about it in the links you had me put up on this post.
Also, Japan was the aggressor with Pearl Harbor being the least of its aggressions. It was committing atrocities and murdering millions of soldiers and civilians. We gave them warning before the bombs and they wouldn’t surrender. Once we dropped one, they still refused to surrender. So we dropped another one and they capitulated.
I would like to read Zinn’s version of it though.
Lane
I agree that militaries should never attack unarmed civilian populations (a part of Catholic Social teaching on Just wars, I believe). And in so far as we did this with conventional bombings and nuclear bombings we were wrong. I don’t know enough about the specifics in this case to second guess the targets.
Lane
@JasonStellman:disqus and @christiankingery:disqus, so politics comes up frequently, and I thought you guys might find this link discussing what is rightism and leftism interesting. (The author, is a psychiatrist, an atheist (I believe), and politically left. I typically find him very interesting, although long winded.) I think he may be on to something.
http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/03/04/a-thrivesurvive-theory-of-the-political-spectrum/
Lane
I’m disappointed, I was hoping you were going to go crazy environmental like the people in the comments of the article.
And no she didn’t sound particularly bright.
Christian Kingery
Ha ha. Sorry to disappoint you. 🙂
ComradeDread
So my question is: given the amount of religious freedom we have in this country and given the incredible amount of Christian products and media available to us, why do Christians feel the need to continually try to get the State to erect monuments or to otherwise validate Christianity?
Is there some deep insecurity in the Christian zeitgeist that needs continual validation from the State which will somehow make Christianity more true?
Talk amongst yourselves.
ComradeDread
Maybe. I think world view definitely plays into it with liberals thinking the future of mankind is probably closer to Star Trek and conservatives thinking the future of mankind is probably closer to Mad Max.
Patrick Flanigan
As a Christian who is very firm in my faith, I too am baffled by Christians who demand that the state affirm their beliefs. As if acceptance in the wider culture somehow legitimizes their faith. I think a pretty good biblical argument could be made for just the opposite. Jesus spoke more critically of the religious establishment of the time than he did any other group, and that includes a massively corrupt Roman empire. He never sought or suggested Christians should seek support or enforcement of their beliefs by the government. There’s good reason for that. Government and human establishments of religion are corrupt by their very nature because they are made up of members of an inherently corrupt species. If you need culture or government to validate your faith, then your faith is weak.
Lane
It would definitely explain how prone conservatives are fear mongering. And how short sighted liberals are.
Lane
Also I’m reminded of a G.K. Chesterton quote:
I can see why Jason likes him.
Lane
I think it is a very human (fallen) impulse to want to seek and maintain power. The fear of losing power is a sign of idolatry. It can not be denied that Christianity has a privileged place in America. And there is a fair amount anxiety about losing currently held privileges. I don’t see it so much about needing validation as truth, so much as continued validation of power. On one hand, I want the government to uphold truth, because I believe it will best lead to the flourishing of our society, however I shouldn’t be motivated by fear of losing control.
If anything it seems Christians should be eager for suffering, being marginalized, and showing weakness. So that we might suffer along with Christ – which is a blessing.
Lane
I thought @JasonStellman:disqus would be interested in this news. The Vatican brought Naomi Klein in to participate in discussions about the environment. Nothing like Catholics not fearing any source of information sacred, secular, Jewish-feminist-atheist, or otherwise to arrive at truth.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/28/pope-climate-change-naomi-klein
Mike
It’s like any other business, when your product starts loosing its market share, what do you do? Advertise! Get the word out there. Their whining and claims of “persecution” keeps them relevant and in the spotlight. Gotta keep those butts in the pews to keep the lights on.
Also, this (pulled from a post by Neil Carter at “Godless in Dixie”:
“The problem with being privileged your whole life is that [after] you have had that privilege for so long, equality starts to look like oppression.”
Susabella
Rumor is, Jason doesn’t read the links you send him.
ComradeDread
Interesting:
http://www.christiantoday.com/article/53.of.americans.convinced.god.has.a.special.relationship.with.us/57835.htm
Apparently, many of us still view God, not as the God of all mankind, but as the God of our Tribe. I suppose this answers my other question in a way. If God is our American tribal deity, then it would make sense to want to put him everywhere in the government to acknowledge that and keep Him happy so He doesn’t get all Old Testament on our tribe and send us off to Babylon.
Lane
Heritage?
ComradeDread
Being a Tory still better than being a Confederate.
Kitti McConnell
The Founding Fathers supposedly intended all Christian churches to co-exist, and yet they shun Latter Day Saints, Catholics and Jehovah’s Witnesses, all of whom follow Jesus (the Christ), as “not Christian”. How does that work? All Christians are OK except the ones we say aren’t really Christian, which means anyone we think is weird.
I’m having flashbacks to high school and its cliques.
DMC Productions
Great episode guys. On the ideas for what can be done without
militaries its an easy issue. The way each community can go about
protecting their community is recall all the troops from their home
towns, and start public protection groups weather armed or not. Then
train with Switzerland protection groups and learn from them on how to
be a more peaceful society and not stop invading poor brown people in
the middle east. Its a very simple idea that would change how peace can
come back to societies and its Christians/those of non-faith standing up to the state non-violently
and putting an end to taxation and live as the Amish/Mennonites in
collective peace loving societies. Its not popular to love your
neighbour but a society based on love can work. BlaireofSexPositivePodcast